People ask why there is not much true prophecy in the earth today? It seems that most of what we see weak words that are more encouragement than prophetic ministry. However, there is a reason that God is not speaking to us a deeper level. Continue reading…
Tagged in: prophetic ministry
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for everyone and is evident by the ability to speak in unknown tongues. However, a story about James Goll would seem like a challenge to that.
Before I get started on that, who is James Goll and why would we care? He is a prophetic leader that has made quite the following writing books in recent years. He is pretty respected in many circles for giving pretty accurate words from the Lord. In fact, he gave Steve Hill a word about the Brownsville Revival a week before it broke out!
I have known Jim for quite a few years and knew of him as a small child when he was a minister at Kansas City Fellowship that was later Metro Christian Fellowship led by Mike Bickle. Being around prophetic people was a way of life growing up. Jim Goll was one of many.
James Goll is a challenge to Acts 2
Why do I say that? According to his testimony, he believes that he was filled with the Holy Spirit by prophesying; NOT speaking in tongues. He later received a prayer language. How does that work out theologically?
Before I answer that, let me give you two passages from the Book of Acts,
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. (Acts 2:1-4)
And later in Acts…..
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19:6)
If we only use Acts 2 as a model, it would clearly James Goll was wrong but if you consider the passage of Acts 19, he might not be far off as some Pentecostal think he would be. Who is to say which came first there? Could it be possible that some of them had prophetic utterances before speaking in tongues? We do not know for sure.
Personally, I do not have a major issue with it as Jim does pray in the Spirit today. It is a matter of prayer language before prophetic ministry or after I guess.
What we learn from this?
Honestly, I do not base my theology on some random example, even if that example is a popular author. The truth is still the truth. The evidence is still a prayer language. That does not change.
I would not take the story of James Goll too seriously and I would for sure, not build a doctrine around it. That is very dangerous to do. I would just file it in the “odd things I don’t get” folder. Plus, looking at that verse in Acts 19 opens the door for the misunderstanding.
In the end, James Goll is biblically filled with the Holy Spirit with the initial physical evidence of unknown tongues today. That is what matters.
One of the core values of Vineyard Churches is partnering with Holy Spirit.
This is one of my favorite topics too. I actually wrote my thesis in seminary on Pneumatology. I love the Holy Spirit and I love being baptized in the Spirit. There is a big difference between be filled with the Spirit and knowing Holy Spirit, the Person.
The context of the Vineyard churches is more being filled with the Spirit. It is worth noting that they do not believe that tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism. I am not sure what is the evidence to be of the baptism but it is not a private language.
What does Vineyard Church believe about being partnering with Holy Spirit?
According to the Core Value booklet, “The Vineyard story is driven by the reality that God eagerly desires us to experience His presence, and then to partner with Him in His work of showing His love to the world. We believe that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts among us, enabling us to encounter God’s presence personally and corporately, and then to minister to the world around us in the power of the Spirit.”
What I see here is alot of theological words that don’t really say much in reality. I am also led to believe that they think that God moves more powerfully inside the church meetings than any other time. However, Ezekiel 47 tells otherwise. The more they got from the temple, the stronger the river become.
The other concern that I have is the role of the Holy Spirit today is not “show love to people.” The Holy Spirit came to convict the world of sin according to Christ. God loves you does not mean anything without repentance and surrender.
I would love to see more of the current Vineyard Church position on Pneumatology.
A call to the prophetic
I am happy to see that part of their core values is about hearing God for others. We call that being prophetic.
“We pray for the sick, we confront injustice, and we seek to hear the voice of God on behalf of others.”
Being a voice of the Spirit is very important and out of the outpost of partnering with Holy Spirit. It is something that every Spirit Baptized believers is called to do and should make a lifestyle of doing.
In the words of John Wimber, “Everyone gets to play.”
I do not believe that is biblical when there is a meetings and there is no prophecy, no tongues and interpretation, no words of knowledge, and no miracles. That is not the same stories that I see in the Book of Acts. Every time 2 or 3 gather, there should be a song, a hymn, a miracle, or a prophecy.
As I said the actual position on Pneumatology currently hold by the Vineyard Churches seems very unclear and what they really believe today. The position was much stronger before the split with the Toronto Blessing and all the fallout that happened right after that.
Note: This is a series on the Vineyard Churches, their values and their beliefs.
My Theological Disclaimer
To be quite honest, it is very limited and I was in the probably the least “Vineyard Vineyard” of them all. I was a teenager when Kansas City Fellowship become Metro Vineyard for a few years. After the mess in Toronto, we become Metro Christian Fellowship after we left the movement over difference of opinion of revival.
We always had a little different point of view on things than many other in the Vineyard. We were kinda the “prophecy” church more than most others were. If anything, it is was too much of an emphasis there. Growing in the prophetic was not an easy road and there is not too many road signs along the way.
As we go through this study, understand my background in from being part of Metro Vineyard and my theological background is mostly Classic Pentecostal. I was educated in the Brownsville Revival and later at Central Bible College (Assemblies of God) and finally at Oral Roberts University.
Mike Bickle was my pastor for quite some time. He imparted alot of practical knowledge, wisdom and prophetic revelation into me. I was just a teenager when it started and I was in my late 20’s when I left the International House of Prayer movement in Kansas City. I have always look back and realized that my time home in Kansas City was some of the best times of my life. Thank you, Mike. Continue reading…
I believe the prophetic ministry is dying a slow death and it the people from within that is killing it, not the critics. We have been slowly part of its’ death and we look in the mirror thinking it is growing. In reality, it is just growing flaky. Continue reading…
I do not know much about this Walter Breggemann besides a video that I just was shared and reading some comments that promote Antisemitism. He seems to favor the Palenstinans in Gaza Strip. He must be about the only theologian in American that hold this odd view. I know I do not.
What I do know is we are talking about a reformed theology guru that is ordained in the United Church of Christ. I do not that deep in the belief system of the movement is socialism. It is not a surprise that Barack Obama called the movement home for many years. Quite the contrast from Attorney General John Ashcroft. Here is John speaking at the Church of God national conference.
While I have always found the UCC to be pretty liberty and you will notice this position in the video below. He want people to believe that the social justice element of the gospel is the most important thing. Remember this is a man that is confused if the Gaza Strip actually believe to the Jewish people.
Walter Brueggemann has a bent against the military
We are seeing this with people like Brian Zahnd.It is becoming the “cool” thing in ministry to speak against the military and demonize the foreign policy of the United States. It at war with God, after all! However, the question is, “Is is really at war with God?” Much of the politicies that we have go back to the godly leadership of Ronald Reagan. Just like all through the Old Testament; God uses a small militarized nation to bring forward his purposes. That has not changed.
Am I saying that uses the missions of the United States Armed Forced to bring about His purpose in regions? Well, why yes I am! One mission from the military can open a region to the gospel. There was a window that evangelism was happening in Iraq for the first time is quite a few years. In fact, it was the war in Iraq that open the door for Canon Andrew White to lead the great ministry, St George’s Church in Baghdad.
As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. (2 Thessalonians 3:1)
All through the Old Testament, God used the armies of men to bring about his spiritual purpose of revival to whole regions. Not as much in the New Testament but the army of Rome play a very important part in forming the story of Jesus that we called the gospels.
This is not to say the God “needs” the Army to do his purposes but many times, He does use to them break open whole regions for the gospel. No one on this planet can put the fear into some dictator group like the Taliban than the United States Special Forces. By the way, did you know there was a revival of evangelism in Afghanistan after they lost power in 2001. Yes, there was limited religious freedom because of the mission of the United States forces.
Is Nationalism demonic
I have war against nationalism in the Philippines because of the damage it does to the people who hold; it is a political problem. I would not say that is it is an idol though. That is real over reach. It can be a product of a spiritual issue like pride and unfounded arrogance but nationalism in and of itself is not demonic.
God made the nations. He would take what He gave us as a gift to humanity and turn into a demonic idol. That just doesn’t make scene. God raises nations for a reason and to demonize it is not that purpose.
We also know in Acts, churches were not known by location but regions. That means that God sees His people regionally, not every little church building. God sees the Church at Manila, the Church at Kansas City, and the Church at London. It is only man that sees all the little building and meeting places.
I think nationalism can get way out of hand, we see it every election cycle but that does not make demonic. Calling it so is just crazy.
Walter Brueggemann is a prophet?
I hear this non-sense about these topics and that they are “prophetic.” There is NOTHING prophetic about it and I am not even sure if it is biblical. It sure open a discussion about the nature of God and the role of the Kingdom. We really need prophets today. The prophets like Leonard Ravenill saw in the portrait of the prophet.
As a reminder of what of a prophet looks like, here is the whole message. It can be found on their website.
The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.
Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.”
The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!
The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.”
The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.
He has no price tags.
He is totally “otherworldly.”
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of
He lives in “splendid isolation.”
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else…!”
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with
epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of
Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.
Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!
I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).
Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?
GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.
There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.
Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.”
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move
men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the
clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision
no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the
wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where
enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.
God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!