Tagged in: Bob Jones

IHOPKC and Gnosticism : Is the prayer movement just a second century revival?

I get messages on Facebook and email every few days about Mike Bickle, IHOPKC and the complete prophetic movement about Gnosticism. Most people do not even have a clue what that is, why it matters and how it plays out in the world today. It is mainly something reserved for theologians and historians. Oddly, I fit in both of those roles so let’s take a look! Continue reading…

What the Vineyard churches taught about community : Broken state of the Ekklisía of the United States

I am a Pentecostal. I will never deny that. However, I also am open and minister in the other streams. Having grew up around Metro Vineyard, it is natural that I have a tendency to be around the Vineyard churches. I also dance around the prophetic movement as well. I would say that my theology is a mixture of the Pentecostalism with some Vineyard theology undertones with a high regard for the prophetic.

The Vineyard used to be very radical and I loved them. I have sit under Mike Bickle. I met John Wimber in 1996. I have traveled to South America with Randy Clark. I have been laid out on the floor from John Arnott praying for me. There is no denying that the Vineyard movement and the extension of it being the Toronto Blessing had an impact on my life.

One of the challenges has been finding places to discuss theological concepts because many of my Pentecostal friends that I went to bible college with are not really that versed in the perspective of George Eldon Ladd and later John Wimber. While Pentecostal theology and Vineyard churches can agree, they just have not done the study so I needed to find other venues to discuss these themes.

What I found is a very liberal, broken, and in some way apostate group that call themselves, ” to discuss theology, issues, concepts, ideas, experiences and stories that affect church life, particularly (but not exclusively) as they relate to the Vineyard movement.” You would think that would be the place to discuss the theological paradigm of the Vineyard and other related movements, right? Wrong! 

Before we get started, I am going to name names as that is Paul did in the New Testament. At one point, he said that Hymenaeus and Alexander could be delivered to Satan. (1 Timothy 1:18-20) Paul had not read How to make friends and influence people, yet.

Vineyard Churches and theology forums

There is the official  Society for Vineyard Scholars that I had planned to get involved with (until this last week) and there is this unofficial Vineyard Theology forum. You would think it was about Vineyard theology, right? Come to find out that it is about liberalism and about anything but actual theology. Nothing to do with the doctrine of the Vineyard churches in any way, shape or form.

You would think that in a theology discussion, people can openly share their conviction with passion without facing censorship. Well, not when you have a guy by the name of Brian Goodwin as the sheriff in town. He thinks any form of passion makes you a jerk and unkind. Yes, he cares more about being “nice” than being holy and righteous.

Without failure, he would jump on the whole 1 Corinthians 13 bandwagon and try and use “love” to beat people into submission of being tempted. I am not sure what this Brian Goodwin guy thinks he will do by making demands to “be nice.” Let’s get real, has anyone ever became loving by some random guy on the internet telling them to do it? You have a better chance of the Pope getting married.

The sad thing is this guy claims to have been to Metro Vineyard and a few years later become the International House of Prayer in Kansas City many times. He even claimed that his wife has been deeply touched by the Bridal paradigm message from Mike Bickle. However, he never really like the Forerunner message and he seems to have especially distaste for people operating in the mantle of John the Baptist. Yes, he is going to have a hard time in the coming years when Stadium Christianity breaks out because it will not be “kind” or “nice.” The coming end time revival will be marked by signs and wonders that confirm the classic hellfire and brimstone preaching of the gospel.

Prophetic picture of the American Ekklisía

Let’s get real. Vineyard churches are a shell of what they use to be. The Holy Spirit is not honored and most of the people in these churches would be shocked at the statements and ministry of John Wimber. You can forget Lonnie Frisbee. He would be too “unloving” and be condemned as a false prophet on the spot.

Let’s consider two passages in Acts. This is the story of the early church. Let’s start in Acts 2

When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

There is something in this very familiar passage that we sometimes overlook. The believers were all together in one place or as the King James puts it, “in one accord.” Basically, what the original language here is pointing to is that they were all in agreement for a common purpose or goal. They all have signed up to tarry for the the power of the Spirit (dunamis power). They did not know what it would look like or how it would come but they all agreed and encouraged each other to press in deeply for more of the Spirit.

Everyone that was presented received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The reason that everyone was filled was because they never broke their desire to tarry. If Peter would have said, “I don’t want to wait anymore,” who knows how the history of the church would have been different?

One thing we do know is that Peter did not agree with some of the people in the room and he had some personal beef with some of the other disciplines as well. They also still remember him as a month before having that deal with the rooster (denying Christ). They was in agreement for the breaking in of the Spirit but they were not in complete conformity as many churches, such as Brian Goodwin, demands today.

To be fair, in Vineyard theology, they try and take the Pentecostal experience of Acts 2 and bring it into reformed/Anabaptist frameworks so it is a little weird.

Later in Acts 4:32, the issue comes up again,

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.

What does it mean they were of one heart? What does one mind mean? They had the passion for the things of God at the core of everything they did. It was who they were and what they were about. They wanted to see the Kingdom come and they wanted to destroy the works of the devil. While they did not agree on everything (there was trouble brewing with egos) at this point, they all had the same vision for the gospel of the Kingdom to be preached (Matthew 24:14)

They cared so much about the mission that God had given them that they would allow that to over ride any personality differences that they had. It did not matter that one felt one way about meat offerings and nothing was struggling about doing ministry to Gentiles. They let the over riding passion for the Kingdom consume their very being. That mean everything to them.

This use to be how the Vineyard churches believes and what they practiced. I am not sure what happened to them. I do not know if it was when John Wimber grieved the Holy Spirit in Toronto that things changed or after Wimber was taken home. However, something serious changed and this is not the Vineyard Christian Fellowship that I grew up in.

How not to be offended by personality

What we are dealing with here is someone that is offended by another personality and expectation based on local culture and norms. I do not believe all Vineyard churches would agree that “people skills” are more important than anointing or theological correctness. While having what he determines to be matters which is vary from California where he lives to the Midwest where I am was raised. This would especially be true for someone internationally like I am currently.

The question remains: are we willing to receive from those whom have an offensive package? The Vineyard movement was directly impacted (but Brian Goodwin is too proud to admit it) by Bob Jones that offended Mike Bickle is about every way possible when they met for the first time. Mike believed that Bob was a false prophet until Art Katz confirmed that Bob Jones was a prophet of the Lord. People like Brian will miss the coming revival and the forerunners because he will be offend at their mannerism.

Imagine what someone that wants a “cleaned up revival” will think when there are modern Jack Coe that rip people out of wheel chairs in the middle of Wal-Mart. The person will walk for the first time or fall on the floor based on their willingness to believe the report of the Lord. We can not imagine how offensive this could be to someone who is worried about being “nice” and having good “manners.” I am sure they will struggle with offense.

What is coming is the going to look much more like Jimmy Swaggart preaching than the TV ready personality of Joel Osteen. It will be fire brand holiness preaching but it will have the theology of the Vineyard churches for the Kingdom with the eschatology of the Brownsville Revival. To miss with the Pharisees even more, the forerunners will have an intimacy with the Father that was the message sounded from the mountaintop during the Toronto Blessing.

For those like this Brian Goodwin that are more interested in having “a nice revival” and “well manners preaching,” they will be busy counting their 30 pieces of silver. I have an odd feeling that we will find many pastors within the Vineyard movement sitting there counting it as they protest the forerunner as social justice warriors crying about the poor.

How to deal with the offended saints?

First of all, it is important to understand that people like Brian is a believer. While they might want to make the forerunner gentle wimps, they believe they are doing the right thing. It is fleshly and based on cultural expectation but you can’t blame them. They firmly believe that the prophets are to sweet little grandmas. They do not have a grid for people who are committed to revival and will be fire brands. It just do not register to their mental understanding of their theological pursuit.

The best thing to do is try your best to reason with them without compromising your calling before the Lord. True community happens when we celebrate each other without trying to make the other into an image of ourselves. This is where the problems remains. A lot of people want to make forerunner compromise. This is the spirit of Delilah at work. 

What needs to happen is what the early church saw happen. They have minor disagreements and they have very different styles but had a deeper commitment for the outpouring of the Spirit. They did not pretend those differences was not there but it was not important as the lame walking and blind seeing. The question becomes, “are you more committed to offense or raising the dead?”

Does what happened to me hurt? No question about it. Every time we are rejected, it hurts. Paul Cain struggle with hurt from a rejection for over a decade once. It really does hurt but does our committed to seeing a one billion soul harvest outweigh our pain? Completely. We just have to forgive them and hope they were pure their desire.

Note: I did reach out to Brian Goodman that is part of the Vineyard churches before writing this and I made every attempt (without compromising my calling) to find a middle ground and bring restoration. He had made zero attempt to find a resolution. 

 

 

 

 

 

7 things I learned from Mike Bickle

Mike Bickle was my pastor for quite some time. He imparted alot of practical knowledge, wisdom and prophetic revelation into me. I was just a teenager when it started and I was in my late 20’s when I left the International House of Prayer movement in Kansas City. I have always look back and realized that my time home in Kansas City was some of the best times of my life. Thank you, Mike. Continue reading…

Jeff Jansen wants the glory!

Jeff Jansen is one of those guy I ran into at one place or another for years. He was a spiritual son of Bob Jones and believed in the release of the prophetic movement. When I was doing the whole conference circuit, if I was not speaking at a meeting he was also at; I just came to be at the meeting. I would say I saw him a dozen time over three or four years. I haven’t saw him since shortly after the Lakeland Revival. Continue reading…

Kansas City Prophets revisited

You might know about IHOP in Kansas City and its’ leader, Mike Bickle but they didn’t come out of nowhere. It started twenty years ago at Kansas City Fellowship that infamously became known as the Kansas City Prophets. The story even predates Mike Bickle to be honest.

Bob Jones, Paul Cain, John Paul Jackson, Art Katz, Jim Goll and John Wimber are all people involved in the early days of the prophetic movement in Kansas City. For me, I was just a kid then but my mother loved to go to the meetings and hear the voice of the Lord through the prophets.

What it did give me is a respect for the prophetic word of the Lord and to honor the voice of the Holy Spirit in life and in ministry. Many Christians do not believe in God’s voice and that makes me wonder how christian they really are.

On a personal level, some of the most powerful prophetic words that I have ever recieved was from Bob Jones and Paul Cain. I am talking “read your mail” type words that could be clearly wrong. I am not too interested in these genetic words that I see coming out of most ministries. I do not consider myself as part of the Kansas City Prophets.

e day. Yet, there was a crazy snow storm that hit Kansas City on the first day of spring.

Mike Bickle called a twenty one day fast and it ended with a profound star across the sky that NASA was dumbfounded about. The prophetic was operating at levels that we could only dream of in most ministries.

Paul Cain took what was happened and took it up a few levels. He was giving prophetic words that included addresses, co-worker’s names, birth times of children, etc.

In a meeting in 1989, Paul was preaching and he turned around to my parents on the front row and yelled at my dad, ” it is time to go. You did your job.” What no one else knew what my dad was seriously thinking about leaving the military and moving back to Kansas City full time. It was a word from the Lord through Paul Cain that made it possible to make the choice to retire from the only job he had known: the military.

Add into that mix a regular message from Leonard Ravenhill that was coming to see his son that was teaching in Kansas City and was attending the church. He was as hellfire and brimstone as you can get and my mom still remembers the “trembling of God” when he preached once. It was intense and everyone really knew why revival tarries in that meeting.

However, when you have any movement that focuses on the prophetic ministry and divine healing; there will be people coming up with funny ideas and the revival in Grandview was not any different. People did take it too far.

Kansas City Prophets meets John Wimber

It was in the middle of the eighties that Mike Bickle first met Wimber but in the later part of that decade, Mike was doing alot of confernces with the Vineyard and Paul Cain was giving regular words to the ministries connected with them. I am sure that Wimber was a little uneasy about some of the stuff going on that was over the top but he was a man of grace and didn’t want to come down on it as long as lives were being changed.

Ernie Gruen was a pastor in Kansas City that did not like Mike Bickle and really didn’t like Paul Cain. He wrote a 233 page article on them and blasted it by post mail to thousands of pastors across America. He is really, really upset to put it lightly.

At this point, John Wimber was getting involved as everyone from the Southern Baptist Convention to Jimmy Swaggart to Pat Robertson was coming down on them very hard. Wimber had a choice: condemn them completely or take the bullet for them.

In the end, John Wimber came to Kansas City, rebuked Mike Bickle and Bob Jones. Kansas City Fellowship became Metro Vineyard Christian Fellowship and John Paul Jackson went to California. Shortly after, Jim Goll left for Tennessee.

The good news of it all is some issues were being addressed and all the haters cooled down alot….. until the Toronto Blessing broke out.

 

God used the Kansas City Prophets

I look back at the time as a student of revival and I see what God did. If you understand the tower of Babel, the day of Pentecost and the wider Book of Acts; you know that God problems to take the message to the world.

In the tower of Babel, they all spoke in other tongues and they all went different ways. In the book of Acts, the same thing happened. Many know Acts 1:8 but not as many know Acts 8:1. God used trouble to get the gospel to the world.

In the same way, many ministries raised up around the world because of the issues in Kansas City. Jim Goll ended up in Nashville; John Paul Jackson would eventually land in Vetmont, Bob Jones would join Rick Joyner in Charlotte, and Paul Cain would spend his time between Kansas City and Los Angeles. Later, Shawn Bolz would be raised up to pastor in Hollywood.

The impact of the prophetic movement in the eighties reached to almost every major movement in the Church. God even raised up people that embraced the prophetic in the Baptist churches like Dr. Ron Philips.

Where are we going with the prophetic?

We have to get to the place in the prophetic that we live greeting people, “You are fine. How am I?” I am somewhat joking but I am also being serious. We need to get the prophetic ministry restored in every major movement in the Body of Christ. It has started and many do embrace it on some level. It must continue to grow until we all believe that God can use us to speak to the people around us.

Here is a quick video of Mike Bickle talking about the term Kansas City Prophets. The name of the book he named is Some say it Thundered by David Pytches.

Stadium Christianity is my Eschatology

What is the Stadium Christianity? Why is it my eschatology and why does it matter? Well, it is the study of the End Times and yes we are heading towards an end of what we call the Church Age. This age of grace could end at any moment or none of us alive together to see it.

What I do know is God is changing the understanding and expression of Christianity in one generation. He told Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer that he would do it and he is doing it.




We understand Christianity as primarly “the Body of Christ.” Most use this because it is overly pastoral in nature and it is what we are told to believe. It also works well for people who are overly relational and in many Asians and Pacific cultural, relational life is a major issue (and hinderance).

Jesus did not tell us to “go and win friends and influence people.” He did not tell us to “go and invite people to cell group.” He did not tell us to “go and give them this best selling Christian book.” He did tell us to “go and preach the gospel.”

World Revival School of Ministry



Eschatology: Clarifying Soteriology and Ecclesiology

What is that and why does it matter? The study of salvation is called sorietlogy to the elite theological circles. It is a fancy word for what is salvation. Ecclesiology is a fancy word for what is the Church or the called out ones. Over the last few centuries, we have told the world that being a church member was being saved. We wouldn’t say that from the pulpit (we would deny it even) but that was the culture of most churches in the Western World.

I can’t begin to tell you how many times I have heard people say that we should invite people to church and call that evangelism. It is not and will never be evangelism. Jesus did not die so we could have worship services. He died so that men could come to knowledge of the Savior of the World. When you focus on church and not of the message of the Christ; you have taught a false gospel.

Jesus did not hang on the Cross so that we could have “better community” either. There is no need for nails to be driven through his hands so we could sit at Starbucks and have “relationship” over a latte. Those nails were driven so we could have relationship with our Heavenly Father. Communion with Him is what matters; not community with others.




In the last days, the issue of sorietlogy will be critical in our view of eschatology. As we unlink it from Church and see salvation on its’ own; we will see revival break forth and gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed from the mountains and from the stadiums of the world.

In no way, do I see a defeated and broken Church at the end of the age, I see a church that has repented of fear and guilt. Repentence means to change your life and change your mind. It is a new way to think. I believe the Church will repent and start to think again!

healing revival

Eschatology: Honoring the final words of Christ

There are many views of how things will play out. You can pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, amillenialist, post-millenialist and about half a dozen other options. However, I believe Jesus gave us something much more important in his final words before going to Heaven.

In Acts 1:7, the discplines (probably Peter) asked him how would we know when He was returning. Jesus did not directly answer him but told him that to worry about times and dates. The details of eschatology was not the important thing to worry about.




He continued and told them when the Holy Spirit on them, they will be witness to the end of the earth. One most people do not understand about this passage is that being a witness in the mind of Jesus was to be a martyr. The greek word is where we got the word martyr from.

Jesus basically told the disciplines to not worry about the return of the Lord, none of them would probably see it but go preach the gospel with signs and wonders until you are all martyred by religiousity.

That is what my eschatology is. Preach the gospel in the stadiums of the world until Jesus comes or I am martyred; whichever comes first.

The great End-Time Harvest will be just like it started: full of power, authority, joy, and glory. I believe that we could see what is coming from glimpses we have been given through history. It will be a revival of salvation, healing and deliverance.
OneThing

Is revival driven by pastors?

My study of revival history leads me to believe that pastors are normally more of a hindernce to revival than an asset. History is full of pastors either rejecting the move of God or being taken out of the picture so the Spirit could move.




On Father’s Day 1995, John Kilpatrick, pastor of the church, was literally knocked out for hours in the glory of the Lord. Because of that, the Spirit could more with fear of control. It was just the Spirit of God and the vessel of Steve Hill to walk in revival fire.

This example has been repeated many times over through history. I am not saying that pastors can’t lead revival because they can. The revival in Tampa was lead by Rodney Howard-Browne that was the pastor of the church. The historical model is that most times, the lack of pastoral leadership is a benefit.

We are coming into a place that pastors and leaders come off the platform and join the people. The leadership of the Holy Spirit is all the leadership that we need.

We will come to a place where we are nameless and faceless to the world. The only thing they see is the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in the place of meeting.




The Sound of the River of God

I believe that God is about to send send the River of God to the people in North America. In 1983, Bob Jones had a dream that in 10 years the river would flow again. On January 20, 1994; the river did start to flow in a small church in Canada. It changed the world.

I was sitting working of the book about prayer and I saw on Facebook a worship video. It is Rick Pino singing about the River of God. I love Rick’s stuff and he is a model for prophetic worship.

It got me thinking about the river 🙂

River of God has a source: YOU!

Since the day of Pentecost, the river of God has not flowed to the people of God but from them. This is the picture we get in Ezekiel 47 at least. Yes, you have to first have it, but then you have to release it!

Then he brought me back to the door of the house. And I saw water flowing from under the doorway toward the east, for the house looked toward the east. The water was flowing from under the right side of the house, from south of the altar. He brought me out through the north gate and led me around on the outside to the east gate. And I saw water coming from the south side. –Ezekiel 

The river did start in the Church but if you notice, it did not stay in the Church; it went to the world. The reason that the River of God gets dammed up more times that we care to admit is we don’t open the doors to let the river out.

If you don’t open the floodgates, you will drown in the River of God that was meant to transform you and the community around you.

The River will deliver Moses

I It was the river that saved Moses from being killed and instead gave him royal authority. Literally.  If it was not for him being pushed down the river in a basket; it would have dead within days.

In the same way, many people are completely dead spiritually and the venue for their miracles and life afresh is the river of God. It is just a river of job but also a one of deliverance.

What many do not realize, like Moses, is their deliverance is not for them; it is through them. Moses was not delivered just for him own good; he was delivered for the people of God.

Healing is in the River of God

These waters go out toward the east country and down into the Arabah, then flow into the Dead sea. When they flow into the sea, the waters there become clean again.  Every living thing that gathers where the river goes will live. There will be very many fish, because these waters go there and make the salt water clean. So everything will live where the river goes. Fishermen will stand beside it. They will have places to spread their nets from Engedi to Eneglaim. The fish will be of many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea.  But its wet places and pools will not be good for animal life. They will be left for salt.  All kinds of fruit trees will grow on both sides of the river. Their leaves will not dry up, and they will never stop giving fruit. They will give fruit every month because their water flows from the holy place. Their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing.” –Angel of the Lord

The prophetic word that everything lives in the river is powerful. Your dream lives in the river. Your family’s salvation lives in the river. Your son’s deliverance from crack lives in the river. Whatever you need is found there.

Without it, most people will take their addiction, dead dreams, and salvation of people they care about to the graveyard; the final resting place of most dreams and ideas.

What the people need is to let the River of God flow to them, in them and through them!

Here is an old song from the renewal in the 1990’s about the River…. Let the River flow.