There is new ministry training opportunities coming up all the time and one of them is Benny Hinn School of Ministry. Is it really a good place to get ministerial training or not? I will give a spoiler here: I am pro- Benny Hinn! Continue reading…
Tagged in: Benny Hinn
I was speaking with a friend that is a leader in the prophetic movement on Facebook and we got on the issue of restoring people to ministry. I believe what happened with Todd Bentley at the end of the Lakeland Revival is an open rebuke to the whole system. Continue reading…
Before we get started on this, I want to say that I will no way make fun or mock the condition of Justin Peters. I am saddened by his sickness that he has and more sickened that most of the issue he faced in because of a fear based theology he that was told was biblical. However, I know first hand the problems of dealing with sickness.
As I understand it, he has Cerebral Palsy and was prayed for by R.W. Schambach. I am not sure if that is in Tulsa or not. I also understand he has some very unkind words about the faith movement. I believe part of this might be because of living in Tulsa when things did get out of control in the early 1990’s. I was in the mix of it all and I will only said there are some thing happening, especially at Rhema Bible Training College that made me uncomfortable. (Yes, I am a graduate of Oral Roberts)
As someone that has a medical issue (but will preach healing all day), I disagree with Justin on being “content with life.” I believe we should always be trying to level up spiritually. We are to move closer to God than we was yesterday. Smith Wigglesworth said it best, “If you are in the same place in God than you are yesterday, you are backsliding.”
But, hey, that is a whole new discussion for another day.
Justin Peters has a problem with the Word of Faith Movement
The funny thing about this is I am firmly in the faith movement, graduate of Oral Roberts and all, but I probably agree on more issues with Justin that he would probably believe. I have preached against people laying hands on cars and “claiming them.” I walked out of a chapel at ORU and later confronted Kenneth Copeland to his faith for some things that was outside the Word. I did not think telling thousands of students in debt over their ears that “show me your bank account, I will show your faith” was right.
With that said, I believe that if you believe, you will recieve. It is a done deal. I believe that Prosperty is the will of God and there is a purpose for it. Every single promise of prosperity in the Bible is connected to a passage about the great commission. Prosperity is not for you, it is through you. After all, renting stadiums, buying bibles, and getting plane tickets are not free.
I have watched Benny Hinn much like Justin has. In fact, I had met with Benny twice and went have dinner with him once. He is a great person who loves people. He has helped many people around the world by building children’s homes for them. I have visited the ones he finances in Manila.
What else I have done is been on the platform of the crusade when Benny Hinn was touched by the Holy Spirit and it led him to re-think some of his positions on prosperity. It was in 2007 in Manila, Philippines. He saw the hunger of the poor spiritually and realized that poverty was not a demonic spirit.
I guess the difference between Justin Peter and myself is I am in the faith movement (with my eyes wide open) and see its problems. He is on the outside and can’t see its’ benefits. My guess would be the Word of Faith has won more people to Christ than any movement in the last twenty five years.
What about the Todd Bentley issue?
I know Todd. I was in the middle of the whole thing in Lakeland. I was in Oklahoma preaching in protracted meetings when I got an email that the fire of God was falling in Lakeland. I was ready to go….then I found out it was Todd Bentley’s meeting. At first, I knew the theological issue I had with Todd but I also knew he was a man of the Spirit and believed in the fullness of Pentecost. I asked a friend to come lead the revival I was in from Springfield and I left for Lakeland. When I went, I had a bible in one hand, a Strongs in the other and a mind that said, “Eat the meat and throw away the bones.”
I remember during those days getting emails from some pretty important ministries that was asking why in the world I was there and if I really believe that God was moving. They believed that I had really put my neck on the line and that Todd was unstable. Then, to my surprise one of those who emailed me walked onto the platform one evening and prayed for Todd to have the spirit of boldness.
What think I can tell you is my theology did not change because of being in the meetings and I was still doctrinally the same person. The important was that hundreds of people did not have the same story. They were delivered from drugs, sex addictions and crime by the presence of God in the meetings.
Where Justin Peters and I disagree is open attacks and using the bible, out of context, to do it. I want to include a video of Justin openly attacking Todd. What I do want to say is I respect Justin for doing it to Todd’s face.
The passage that Justin used is not against healing, delivernce or raising the dead. It is about doing the will of God. Todd is a doer of God’s will. How do I know? I have traveled with Todd Bentley to Africa and to South America. He preached the salvation message just as much as Justin Peters preaches it. It is the simple ABCs of salvation. God’s will is none would perish but all would come unto eternal life.
I can not help but think that there would have been a better way to handle this then to make a big public confrontation. The gospels tells us to go to them in private and if need be, bring others. To this regard, I have to say that Justin Peters did not do that and that Todd handled it quite well.
Justin Peters is an Independent Fundamental Baptist
From what I can tell, the guy is a hard core Fundamentalist that is to evangelicalism what Oneness Pentecostals are to Charsmatics. These guys live for a fight and they believe that holiness is about how you dress and what translation you use. Legalism is the name of the game and I have seen far too many people end up living in open sin once they get a little distance from the legalism. Not good.
My mother had a friend who had some issues with my mom being in ministry because her baptist church was against it. They just agreed to disagree and had a somewhat decent friendship for alot of years. Her son and I didn’t get along because I turned basketball into WWE too many times.
Then, the friend of my mom got Multiple Sclerosis and she became more and more against healing and her pastor was telling her that is was “the will of God.” As things went on, my mom and her became less friendly because my mom does not believe (nor do I) than disease is the design of heaven or the Kingdom in this world.
Where I stand on the whole Discernment (heresy hunters) ministries
I get that you want to keep people accountable and all but we need to build up people and to say anyone that disagrees with you is going to hell just is not right. I believe that Justin Peters will be in heaven with me and I believe that Todd Bentley will be in heaven with me as well.
At the end of the day, we must remember that our faith is based on just that, faith; not doctrine or philosophies.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. (1 Corinthians 4:20)
Looking at my Kindle and I reading several books, one of them is Darren Wilson’s Filming God. I like Darren as a guy and I love to hear his journey out of unbelief into being “the defender of the miraculous.” He is alot like Randy Clark in alot of ways (minus the 1990’s haircut that Randy keeps)
When I am reading his book, I have remind myself that he is not a classic Pentecostal or someone raised in the Charismatic renewal. He was a good ole Baptist boy that questioned everything just a decade ago. His “mainframe” is your normal one that people who stand strong on healing have. The wiring is a different color.
I really am enjoying the book and most of his thoughts I agree…. but there is one that I have to passionately disagree with. I am sure Darren means well and I am sure this is his baptist roots kicking in. If someone even believe God could heal someone is radical in the Baptist movement. If you believe he would heal, you done lost your mind and went Dr. Ron Philips on everyone.
Divine Healing is not a gift!
This is where I fall off the train with Darren, theologically. I understand where he is coming from. I do. I just do not see it biblically as he does. I do not see healing as a gift. More on that in a minute.
In my experience, the main hurdle many people must overcome before they will fully put their trust in a God who loves them enough that He might possibly heal them through miraculous means is to come to an understanding that He might not heal them. (Darren Wilson, Filming God)
If you believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ (as I do), you can’t believe that God “might not” heal someone. Healing was paid for with the same blood as salvation. If God won’t heal you, He also did not save you. No one with any theological background (beside hard core calvinists) would not agree with that statement. Healing is part of salvation though.
At the heart of this discussion is what we call sozo. It is life to the soul and spirit but also to the mind (delivernce) and to the body (healing). It is complete transformation of the person. That is what salvation is.
Many will hold, “Divine healing is an integral part of the gospel. Deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all believers.”
I agree with that with one little issue: privilege is too weak of a position. It is not just our privilege but is our birthright to be healed.
The fact of the matter is God loves to heal and in order to heal through us, he has to get healing to us. Miracles are just for you, they are to empower you so that miracles can flow through you.
The preaching of salvation with signs, wonders, and miracles was God’s design in the New Testament.
Healing is for you!
“Christ’s death on the cross not only provides for forgiveness of sin, but also healing for sickness. The One who gave you the gift of eternal life…is the same One who can heal your body.” Rev. Doug Clay
While Doug could not be considered a Benny Hinn type of any measurement, his thoughts are very powerful. This is coming from a man much more related to pastoral ministry than having an evangelistic signs and wonders ministry. In my view, pastors are normally the weakest on healing. (That’s another discussion)
When I hear a pastor made a blunt statement about healing like this, my ear pop open. Realizing it is not the common position for them; I know that the Holy Spirit must be speaking to them.
While I think saying that God can heal you is a copout, I do understand the reason for someone in a position of Clay would give the chicken exit. I am sure if I said the same about salvation; everyone would be completely up in arms. I have no idea what they do with the atonement.
The movement that Doug is part of is one that I was part of since the day I was born and I was saved in the Brownsville Revival. I love them but the Assemblies of God have become wimps when it comes to healing. Alot of Assemblies do not even preach it anymore. They prefer to talk about having your best life now and living with purpose.
Why Healing matters in revival?
We are a ministry committed to revival so why should we care about healing? It is not just an add-on on the evangelist’s menu of things to preach. It is the center of the message of the Kingdom of God. Healing is critical to winning the lost. As Mike Francen likes to put it, “A miracles settles the issue.” One miracle and the town repents and turns to God.
The reason that guys like Benny Hinn, Reinhard Bonnke and Richard Roberts put so much emphasis on healing is that is one thing that will convince the masses more than a thousand sermons. Without the supernatural, Christianity is just a story of a guy that made some pretty outlandish claims. Miracles are what makes them legit.
I have seem it a dozen times. A chief in the village comes to a crusade, he is healed by the power of God, when the people see he is healed, they all come to the crusade and get saved. One miracle will truly save a village.
Some of you have become arrogant, thinking I will not visit you again. But I will come—and soon—if the Lord lets me, and then I’ll find out whether these arrogant people just give pretentious speeches or whether they really have God’s power. For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power. (Apostle Paul)
Here is the video of Doug Clay about healing
Here is the promo for Holy Ghost Reborn by Darren Wilson
David Yonggi Cho is the pastor of Yoido Full Gospel Church, the world’s largest church. He is a pastor of pastors. Yoido Full Gospel Church is more like a domination that has camp meeting regularly than an actual local church. Cho is only the Apostolic leader over it all.
I have been to this church in Souel and it is quite amazing. He has built an amazing work for the Lord that started with an old stolen Army tent left after the Korean War. I like what I found in Korea and I liked the freedom that Cho operated in from a ministry point of view.
I listen to him to speak once at Oral Roberts University and he told about all the times he tried to do great things for God only to fail. It was faith building for young revivalists to know ministry really is about trail and error more than the mega-church make it sound like.
Is G12 churches supported by David Yonggi Cho?
The simple answer is no. A core value of Yoido Church is cell ministry but even Cho has reservations about these g12 churches. Cho used it as a tool to grow the church, not to replace the great commission. G12 churches think that their cells are the great commissions. Being a cell group is salvation. This is completely rejected by David Yonggi Cho.
Yoido used cell ministry is one of many tools to grow the church and preach the gospel to South Korea. It never was the focus on the ministry nor did it replace the gospel. In fact, David Yonggi Cho blessed and helped Benny Hinn as well as Reinhard Bonnke when they came to gospel crusades in Seoul. He did not believe that cell ministry would do the great commission, only be one of many expressions.
It is important to understand that Cho believes in using all tools at hand to develop soul winning ministry. He will use crusades, church services, outreaches to governmental leaders, and cell groups. All he cares is people come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ; not how they came to know Christ.
It is the message that is divine, not the method. The problem with G12 churches and why David Yonggi Cho would never support them is they make the method more important that the message. This is not something that Cho would sign off on. In fact, he has rejected it completely.
Cho also understands that cell ministry is completely a cultural thing. It is a biblical model because it does not work everywhere but it can work within some cultural. He would never try and preach the model into the scriptures. It is not unbiblical but it is extra-biblical.
It is important to note that Cho did say publicly that cell ministry, while it works in Korean culture would not work well in American culture. Americans would be won by media presentations of the gospel, not cell groups.
G12 Churches misrepresent David Yonggi Cho
Cesar Castellanos is the main leader in the G12 movement and he repeatly misrepresented Cho in his books and his videos. Cesar did go to Korea and saw what was happening at Yoido Church. However, there was no impartation from Cho. To my knowledge, I do not think they met while he was in Korea. I am not sure if they have met since or not. That is possible.
If they followed the example of Yoido Church, they would give everything away. The church charges for nothing. Counseling is free. Books are free. Food is free. It is based on the words of Jesus, “freely you have received, freely give.”
G12 Churches do not follow this model in any way, shape, or form. There is a price for everything. Counseling with Castellanos is worth about $150 American dollars. That is not bad. If you counsel for two hours a day, you only make around $78,000 a year. Only.
All the conferences at G12 churches are far from free as well. Some of them can get over $100. Charging for conferences is something that need to seriously stop. If you are charging people to hear the gospel; you are a pastor, you are a scam artist. It is just that simple.
For G12 churches and Cesar Castellanos is anyway connected with David Yonggi Cho is completely untrue and that seems to have more differences than they have similarities.
The secret of Yoido Church
I believe the key to the church growth in South Koroa was not any one thing. They realized that as well. They used anything that would work to grow. Cell ministry was a tool but it was not the tool. The focus was always on the gospel of the Kingdom being preached to the lost and dying world.
If pastors burned for the lost like they do in Seoul, we would see much more of a harvest in our cities than we do. They also have never settled for what they have. They see the harvest from what is the field still, not what is already in the barn.
Something that many miss is that they have not won the nation of South Korea or even the city of Seoul. While they have over 800,000 members; most people in Souel are still on a bobsled to hell. They are still going to hell without the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Yiodo Church still has work to do.
Yesterday, we covered on Filming God and judging God Stories based on the documentary by Darren Wilson. Today, we will continue on the subject and addressing the issue of doubting Thomas. In reality, it is one of the most common sins in Western Christianity.
It is no secret that I have little to no respect for people living in doubt and fear. You can’t do anything from a position of fear; yet so many people spiritualize and canonize both of them be “wisdom.” Wisdom makes you bolder with confidence; not pushes you back in being more into compliance.
We need a fresh touch of faith. One of the first things I learn at Oral Roberts University was that faith is always current. It is always now. Hebrews 11 starts with “Now Faith is….” God is the God of the Now. He is always on time.
However, everyone around us are doubters it seems. I hate to say it but Pentecostals can be some of the worst cases of doubting the word of the Lord and the move of the Spirit. It is one thing for the Baptists to question things but Pentecostals that was born out of the Azusa Street Revival? Seriously?
Darren Wilson’s journey into the Spirit realm
If you were to ask me then (and my wife often did), I would have told you that I was a healthy skeptic. In truth, I didn’t believe most of what I heard from other people. It’s not that I thought they were lying, I just figured they were embellishing things, remembering poorly, or stretching the truth (sometimes quite a bit). Usually they had something to gain if I believed them. Maybe I’d give them money, support their ministry, stroke their ego, or allow them to keep speaking at other churches. I was sure God could do great things, I just didn’t think He did do them all that much.
What he calls being a skeptic is really the spirit of Doubting Thomas. He excepted people to not have prophetic experiences. Anything radical at all and he didn’t want to receive it. This is not special to Darren Wilson, either. This is very common, even in renewal churches. Doubt is never a fruit of the Spirit, either.
He expected that faith required him to agree with the person on some level. There was an investment to be made. It might be seeding an offering, supporting them in prayer, or endorsing them in ministry. By his own admission, he knew that having faith in people’s experience would cost him something.
This is a risk that many will not take. They would live a life of failure. They see themselves as people struggling and therefore, they believe everyone around them must be struggling to have faith as well. This is actually far more common than we care to admit.
It is amazing how many Christians think the Holy Spirit is the quiet kid in the corner of the lunch room that is afraid to speak to anyone in fear they will mock Him and humiliate Him!
Darren Wilson was not alone.
The story does not end there. He is open to the move of the Spirit, he is just a skeptical. There is hope and deliverance for skeptics. They are not critics; they haven’t made up their mind, yet.
In Darren’s words,
In my mind, I was a healthy skeptic, but in reality, I was an impostor. I hid behind my skepticism and called it discernment. But what I have discovered in years of traveling the world filming this stuff, and in dealing with people’s opinions of me and my movies, is that skepticism and discernment are two totally different things…
What he is releasing is a powerful word for all of us, if we have ears to hear it. Most of us remain skeptics and spiritualize it as discernment. In reality, most people do not even know what discernment even looks like!
Discernment is being like the Bereans, checking things out hoping it is true. A skeptic is looking with the position, “I am sure they are wrong and I am just checking to make sure before I blog about them as heretics.” There is a world of difference.
I have never been good at being a skeptic of the move of the Holy Spirit and really bad at being a critic. I do not check my brain at the door but I believe in the God of the Possible too. Impossible is nothing to a man with faith.
I am over being being a doubter, completely set free and not returning to being in bondage in the near future. Sorry, not my thing.
What about Scam Artist Preachers
Darren Wilson touches on this as well,
The problem, of course, is that there are so many charlatans out there, so many religious men and women who have been caught lying to us. So many leaders have proven to be hypocrites on a grand scale, and it has become increasingly difficult to trust and believe anything at face value anymore. I don’t see this problem going away any time soon, and I think it’s both healthy and important that we continue to wrestle with these things, test them, and turn a discerning eye toward them.
This is where I will tend to disagree with him on some level. Darren is a solid guy, loves the move of the Spirit but some of His old Baptist theology is raining through. Worrying a scam artist or a charlatan is really not something I care to do. You can say someone is, I can say than they are not. Who is right and who is wrong?
I have found that most people who are accused of being a scam artists are not at all. I hear this leveled against Todd Bentley on a regular basis. I do not believe he is for one minute. He might be dumb with some of his presentation and he might be an idiot when it comes to finances; but that does not mean he is a scam artist.
Todd is no Robert Tilton. He is one of the few that I will say is clearly a con artist. Peter Proff is another. These are confirmed. Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, and even Paul Cain are not. They might have issues but issues don’t make you a charlatan. It just makes you completely lack responsibility.
Darren Wilson’s final outcome
If it was true that God really was moving at an unprecedented rate around the world, and His spirit was doing things that were, well, of biblical proportions on a pretty regular basis, then church for church’s sake wasn’t going to cut it anymore.
If you want to see more of God than you have, you are going to have more faith in what He is doing than you do in what He is not doing. Until we can get to the point, we are not going to see much change in how we think of the Holy Spirit or we express the move of God to the culture we dwell in.
As I said, people like Darren are very common. The sad part if they fill the seats of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches across America.